Re: :zzSig: Containment dims (was Re2: Questions

[Ted Nelson <ted@xxxxxxxxxx>]

u sez

>>    FIG. 12 schematically depicts that a cell  may
>>    contain as its first element a contain dimension,
>>    and proceeding from that an embrace dimension.
>
>   Terrible!

Sorry, I was unclear.  What's terrible is the phrase
 "contain as its first element".  A cell does not contain
 a dimension; this was a heavy-lidded misphrasing,
 probably in the depths of exhaustion.  What I meant was
 "connect along a first containment dimension,
 and then at right angles along a second containment
 dimension." 

Example now.

(Please consider the following monospaced characters
 as making a diagram.  Copy it into some monospaced
 reader or editor if need be-- dropping a copy of this
 email into Explorer or Netscape, for instance.)

A-B-C-D
  |  
  E-F-G
    | | 
    | H
    |
    I-J
      |
      K

The vertical lines are to be interpreted as being
 directly under the corresponding monospaced cellid.
Horizontal: d.contain
Vertical: d..contain-set, a complementary dimension
 designed to complete the 'containment' implementation.

In this diagram, BY INTERPRETATION,
 a cell contains everything that is down and/or rightward.
To wit,
 - I contains J and K
 - G contains H
 - F contains G, H
 - E contains F, G, H, I, J, K
 - C contains D
 - B contains C, D
 - A contains all the others.

Why two are dimensions needed to model containment?
 Because if you had only one dimension, then a cell
 could contain only one thing, which could in turn
 contain one thing, etc., like Russian dolls.
Whereas in our more popular model of containment
 (hierarchical, admittedly), 
 subthings can contain many things at the same level.
The second containment dimension allows that.

A cell does not contain the cells beneath it on d.contain
 because these two cells are interpreted as being on
 the same level of containment (drawer, can, etc.)

Note that this notion of containment applies in principle
 to both programs and data.  However, nobody has
 seriously implemented containment to enact both.
 (A depth setting has been suggested as a way to prevent
 accidental runaway perpetual loops; but if you *want*
 this mechanism to allow perpetual loops, well, we can
 discuss it :)

>  These are now called
> d.contain
> and 
> d..contain-set
> (or at least I *think* that's what they're called in the
> FloatingWorld documents.
>
> Yes, I remember .contain and .contain-set, although I don't
>  Is there a standard significance
> to the double-dot notation I should know about?

Yes: the double-dot indicates a *derivative* dimension,
 subordinate conceptually to some other dimension.

I have found that often dimensions want to come in pairs,
 though I don't remember other examples at this moment.

Over and out !-)  T


At 09:26 AM 5/3/02 -0400, you wrote:
> At 01:20 AM Friday 05/03/2002, Ted Nelson wrote:
> Hi Jan--
>
>>What did you mean when you wrote, in the patent,
>>
>>    Which dimensions appear in a particular view
>>    are controllably navigated to by selectively
>>    picking another DIMENSION DEFINED FOR THE
>>    CURRENT CELL, and rotating it to become a
>>    dimension in a view...
>
> By 'defined for the current cell' I think I meant
> 'along which the current cell has some connection.'
>
> Ted, hi, on this point, maybe I should give you a call
>  I'm concerned because it seems
> to me that if one adds a new cell to, say, the end
> of an existing rank, that cell only is connected along
>  If one walks out onto the
> new cell, making it the current, there is only one
> dimension it has a connection on, so the axes display
>  Is this the intent?
>
> 
> >I also don't understand Figure 12, or its explanation
>
> I'm afraid I can't put my hand on the patent--
>
> I can send you a copy, if you like, no problem.
>
> 
> >which reads
>>
>>    FIG. 12 schematically depicts that a cell  may
>>    contain as its first element a contain dimension,
>>    and proceeding from that an embrace dimension.
>
>   Terrible!
>
>>I think it's explained in the text of the patent, and
>>simply means there are predefined d.contain and d.embrace
>>which are used in a stylized manner, viz.,
>>
>>    FIG. 12 shows schematically how the relation of
>>    containment may be defined on a special dimension,
>>     To achieve
>>    consistency, another dimension may be added, termed
>>     A cell contains as its first
>>    element the first cell posward on the containment
>>    dimension, and the rest of the content listing proceeds
>>    poswards from this first element on the embrace
>>     However, by interpretation all of this
>>    is deemed to be inside the cell.
>
>  These are now called
> d.contain
> and 
> d..contain-set
> (or at least I *think* that's what they're called in the
> FloatingWorld documents.
>
> Yes, I remember .contain and .contain-set, although I don't
>  Is there a standard significance
> to the double-dot notation I should know about?
>
> 
> This patent application is now Way Old, and I think
> it's all better defined in newer  material.
>
> It's better defined in the sense of having the benefit
> of more thinking invested in it, clearer, and with the
>  It may not be better in the
>"...with 
> circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of 
>"  That's okay, we'll make do.
>
...
> [snip]
>
> 
>
> At 10:42 PM 5/1/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Ted,
>>
>>Hi.
>>
>>What did you mean when you wrote, in the patent,
>>
>>    Which dimensions appear in a particular view
>>    are controllably navigated to by selectively
>>    picking another DIMENSION DEFINED FOR THE
>>    CURRENT CELL, and rotating it to become a
>>    dimension in a view...
>>
>>  Did you mean by
>>"" that the cell is
>>  Does it mean that
>>the dimensions displayed on the upper left axes
>>really are supposed to come and go as the user
>>walks across the structure?
>>
>>I also don't understand Figure 12, or its explanation
>>which reads
>>
>>    FIG. 12 schematically depicts that a cell  may
>>    contain as its first element a contain dimension,
>>    and proceeding from that an embrace dimension.
>>
>>I think it's explained in the text of the patent, and
>>simply means there are predefined d.contain and d.embrace
>>which are used in a stylized manner, viz.,
>>
>>    FIG. 12 shows schematically how the relation of
>>    containment may be defined on a special dimension,
>>     To achieve
>>    consistency, another dimension may be added, termed
>>     A cell contains as its first
>>    element the first cell posward on the containment
>>    dimension, and the rest of the content listing proceeds
>>    poswards from this first element on the embrace
>>     However, by interpretation all of this
>>    is deemed to be inside the cell.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>   --Jan
>>
>>


_________________________________________
Theodor Holm Nelson              
Project Professor, Keio University SFC Campus, Fujisawa, Japan
Visiting Professor, University of Southampton, England
 ?  e-mail: ted@xxxxxxxxxx   ?  world-wide fax 1/415/332-0136
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